[Dr. Jezebel]

Neil Carter, aka Godless in Dixie recently posted this. I so much appreciate his blog, since he articulates these things better than I do.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindi...pfa7e1p.01

If there is no fear in love, why is fear used so much in Fundamentalism to keep people in line?

[rtgmath]

There is no fear in love.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Therefore....
Love is not wise.

[Workin' Mama]

Interesting article, Jez. Thanks for sharing.

Profound food for thought, rtg. There are a lot of ways those words can be taken.  Proverbs and 1st John of course have different messages, and different cultural and historical contexts, as well as different authors. But it's very interesting to put those thoughts together.  Perhaps the fear of the Lord is just the BEGINNING of wisdom, but as one matures and grows wiser and learns more about God, love casts out fear. Or perhaps, love is indeed unwise (after all, love makes one vulnerable), but love is still the better choice.

Speaking of hell, I'm not exactly sure what I believe about it anymore. I've heard a lot of people talk about being traumatized by the fear of hell during their youth and childhood. Personally, I was never scared of hell as a child (even though I was heavily indoctrinated with fundy teachings about it), because I knew I wasn't going there.

As an adult, there is a part of me that hopes the fundy version of hell is real, so that those who have hurt little children and escaped earthly punishment could finally receive some type of justice for their evil deeds.

Recently, my oldest child was asking questions about hell. My husband answered with a simple, non-graphic but never-the-less fundy explanation. Something along the lines of "there's fire there and people who don't believe in Jesus go there." We live in the Bible belt, so I think my child thinks everybody believes in Jesus. Still, I was somewhat disturbed and didn't know what to say, so I didn't say anything except to assure my child that they are not going there and neither are their sibling(s).

I'm going through a huge shift in my beliefs -- a gradual process that started a couple of years ago and may take years to resolve. In the meanwhile, my kids are at a very formative time in their lives, and I'm not sure what to tell them about religion and spirituality. Sometimes I tell them I don't know, and it's OK not to know. My husband, on the other hand, gives more concrete answers. While he has rejected the legalism and authoritarianism and misogyny of the IFB church, he still remains fairly conservative in his theology. Because he gives more concrete answers, they tend to go to him with religious questions. Maybe I should just start being more honest with them about the fact that I have my own doubts and questions.

[steve95054]

Note: The following is no defense of the fundies.  I was raised as one, and have been Orthodox now for almost 9 years.  I want nothing to do with fundyism, and the sooner it dies as a movement the better.

That being said, the fire is real, and people will go there, and we should fear it and the one who has the power to send us there.  And that fear is the beginning of wisdom.  These things are all true.

So how does that reconcile with the other just-as-true things? that God is love; that there is no fear in love and perfect love casts out fear?

St. Maximos the Confessor (late 6th - mid 7th centuries) explains all this in the First Century of his Four Hundred Chapters on Love.

St. Maximos Wrote:1. Love is a holy state of the soul, disposing it to value knowledge of God above all created things. We cannot attain lasting possession of such love while we are still attached to anything worldly.

2. Dispassion engenders love, hope in God engenders dispassion, and patience and forbearance engender hope in God; these in turn are the product of complete self-control, which itself springs from fear of God. Fear of God is the result of faith in God.

3. If you have faith in the Lord you will fear punishment, and this fear will lead you to control the passions. Once you control the passions you will accept affliction patiently, and through such acceptance you will acquire hope in God. Hope in God separates the intellect from every worldly attachment, and when the intellect is detached in this way it will acquire love for God.
...
81. Fear of God is of two kinds. The first is generated in us by the threat of punishment. It is through such fear that we develop in due order self-control, patience, hope in God and dispassion; and it is from dispassion that love comes. The second kind of fear is linked with love and constantly produces reverence in the soul, so that it does not grow indifferent to God because of the intimate communion of its love.

82. The first kind of fear is expelled by perfect love when the soul has acquired this and is no longer afraid of punishment (cf. 1 John 4:18). The second kind, as we have already said, is always found united with perfect love. The first kind of fear is referred to in the following two verses: ‘Out of fear of the Lord men shun evil’ (Prov. 16:6), and ‘Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’ (Ps. 111:10). The second kind is mentioned in the following verses: ‘Fear of the Lord is pure, and endures for ever’ (Ps. 19:9. LXX), and “Those who fear the Lord will not want for anything’ (Ps. 34:10. LXX).

[Dr. Jezebel]

How do you know the fires of hell are real?

[steve95054]

Are you asking theologically or epistemologically?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[The Inimitable Lady Semp]

(08-11-2018, 07:07 AM)Dr. Jezebel Wrote: How do you know the fires of hell are real?

For that matter, how does anyone know hell is real and that any god exists?

[steve95054]

(08-11-2018, 10:16 AM)The Inimitable Lady Semp Wrote: For that matter, how does anyone [know] hell is real and that any god exists?

That's epistemological. I'm not planning on answering that because that's a loooooong discussion. (Usually more of a journey actually, and not entirely comprised of discussion.)

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[The Inimitable Lady Semp]

(08-11-2018, 10:45 AM)steve95054 Wrote:

(08-11-2018, 10:16 AM)The Inimitable Lady Semp Wrote: For that matter, how does anyone [know] hell is real and that any god exists?

That's epistemological.  I'm not planning on answering that because that's a loooooong discussion.  (Usually more of a journey actually, and not entirely comprised of discussion.)

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I ask because you said, "That being said, the fire is real, and people will go there, and we should fear it and the one who has the power to send us there.  And that fear is the beginning of wisdom.  These things are all true."   I figured you had reasons to say it.  

[Dr. Jezebel]

^wss

Regardless, whatever reasons you have, you are certainly aware that there are theologians who don't believe the Bible teaches a literal hell.

"I" statements avoid this type of needless conversation. "I believe the fire is real, etc" is a different conversation entirely than the assertion you made.