[redhot]

So I was at a Ladies Bible study this morning and I am not joking when I say my entire perception of the flood has been shattered and I'm not quite sure where to go.  The theme of our book is Seeing Jesus in Genesis. We were talking about Noah and his family going into the ark. I have always, since Sunday School flannel graphs and ABeka Bible class flash cards, heard that for the 120 years that Noah was building the ark, he was preaching and warning people of what was to come. They ignored his message, and they all perished.  I clearly remember that one picture even had them banging on the door and trying to get in once they realized the rain was coming.  This has also been referenced in sermons, since the ark is a type of salvation, and everyone has a chance, and once the judgement comes, they will not be able to repent, etc... 

This website clearly states that "anyone" could have entered.

http://bscln.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Genesis-13.pdf

"B. Even in Judgment, God Displays His Grace Though the world perished, one man and his family were saved. Until the day the flood came, the door was open. Anyone could have entered."

6.Once God shut the door, no one else could enter. While the door was open, anyone could enter and be saved from the coming flood. Once the door was shut, it would not be opened again until the flood was over. Today is the day of grace. The door of salvation is open to all who will enter. Whosoever will may freely come."

But in the course of the conversation this morning, someone challenged me on that and said that NOWHERE does it say that anyone else had an opportunity. I literally was so dumbfounded that I'm still reeling.  I've been reading Genesis 6 all day, and I can't find anything that says that anyone else even had a chance. 

6:18  But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

7:1  And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

I surely can't be the only one who had this image in my mind of the entire world rejecting the truth. But is there any scripture anywhere else in the Bible that clearly states that anyone besides Noah's family had a chance?  And if they didn't have a chance, then does the story of the ark really represent that salvation is for everyone? Or am I skating too close to Calvinist territory 

[The Inimitable Lady Semp]

(02-14-2018, 08:10 PM)redhot Wrote: So I was at a Ladies Bible study this morning and I am not joking when I say my entire perception of the flood has been shattered and I'm not quite sure where to go.  The theme of our book is Seeing Jesus in Genesis. We were talking about Noah and his family going into the ark. I have always, since Sunday School flannel graphs and ABeka Bible class flash cards, heard that for the 120 years that Noah was building the ark, he was preaching and warning people of what was to come. They ignored his message, and they all perished.  I clearly remember that one picture even had them banging on the door and trying to get in once they realized the rain was coming.  This has also been referenced in sermons, since the ark is a type of salvation, and everyone has a chance, and once the judgement comes, they will not be able to repent, etc... 

This website clearly states that "anyone" could have entered.

http://bscln.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Genesis-13.pdf

"B. Even in Judgment, God Displays His Grace Though the world perished, one man and his family were saved. Until the day the flood came, the door was open. Anyone could have entered."

6.Once God shut the door, no one else could enter. While the door was open, anyone could enter and be saved from the coming flood. Once the door was shut, it would not be opened again until the flood was over. Today is the day of grace. The door of salvation is open to all who will enter. Whosoever will may freely come."

But in the course of the conversation this morning, someone challenged me on that and said that NOWHERE does it say that anyone else had an opportunity. I literally was so dumbfounded that I'm still reeling.  I've been reading Genesis 6 all day, and I can't find anything that says that anyone else even had a chance. 

6:18  But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

7:1  And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

I surely can't be the only one who had this image in my mind of the entire world rejecting the truth. But is there any scripture anywhere else in the Bible that clearly states that anyone besides Noah's family had a chance?  And if they didn't have a chance, then does the story of the ark really represent that salvation is for everyone? Or am I skating too close to Calvinist territory 

While those verses certainly state that Noah and kin would go in,  I'm not sure it excludes others.  

If I tell someone I'm going somewhere, and I'm going there with my friends, I won't necessarily say I'm going there with my two best friends.  If the discussion here was directed to Noah there would not need to be a discussion about who else was going.  Provided such a discussion did happen, it might have been one of those things edited out.  

Just because it wasn't written down doesn't mean it didn't happen.  It might have been written down but tossed out.

[Miss TTU Runner-Up]

This is why Noah and the Ark is not a cute children’s story...

[RobMille]

I would caution against taking anything in the story of Noah so literally. The story has all the markings of being apocryphal & more of a parable to teach a lesson than any kind of history of anything.

[The Inimitable Lady Semp]

(02-14-2018, 11:36 PM)RobMille Wrote: I would caution against taking anything in the story of Noah so literally.  The story has all the markings of being apocryphal & more of a parable to teach a lesson than any kind of history of anything.

Well, yes, there is that.

Funny how fundies spin the fact that many ancient cultures have a flood story in their legends as evidence for their side.  They conveniently forget that there are stories like the rescue of the (holy) infant Moses in other myth systems.

[Ricardo]

There are at least 100 tales in Genesis that can be traced directly to Egyptian Myths (Heliopolis) or Babylonian Myths. in some cases to both. (As in Genesis 1 versus Genesis 2.)

The Flood Myth is one of these. The P and the J texts do not even agree on how long it rained, how many birds were saved, and more.

Google the Gilgamesh Myth from Babylon, which was around a thousand years before Genesis was written. There is no doubt it is the same story.

Can God use Myths to talk to us? Yes, of course! But do not try to make the Myth into an inerrant, true fact of History.

[WalrusWrangler]

The verse I've seen used to create this implication is 2 Peter 2:5, which in the KJV calls Noah a "preacher of righteousness." Modern versions sometimes say something like "herald of righteousness." 1 Peter 3:20 has similar potential interpretations. It's reading a bit into the passages to say that Noah beckoned people to join him on the ark, though. I don't think the scripture is clear either way, but the fundy vision of people mocking Moses and later clamoring to come inside after the door was shut is clearly an invention.

Whether others could join Noah on the ark isn't clear from the scripture, and I don't think it's necessarily relevant to its message. The lesson I take from the flood story is twofold: God punishes the wicked, but spares his chosen righteous. That's the thrust of 2 Peter 2:4-10.

[Miss TTU Runner-Up]

Are they chosen because they are righteous, or righteous because they were chosen?

[The Inimitable Lady Semp]

(02-15-2018, 11:50 PM)Miss TTU Runner-Up Wrote: Are they chosen because they are righteous, or righteous because they were chosen?

Good question, and one which folks will debate forever.

I personally think that the writings which make up various religious traditions are fables, morals, and allegories.  The writers were looking to make sense of the world and wrote stuff down, then eventually people decided to make them foundational in a belief system.  There are the occasional nuggets of truth, like "surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the stirring of wrath bringeth forth strife" but that doesn't mean the entire collection is correct and accurate let alone worthy of unbridled devotion and obedience.

[WalrusWrangler]

(02-15-2018, 11:50 PM)Miss TTU Runner-Up Wrote: Are they chosen because they are righteous, or righteous because they were chosen?

Both. They were righteous because of God's sovereign grace, and they were chosen to survive the flood because of that righteousness. Two choices there, in some sense. I'm a Calvinist, though, so take that for what you will. That's also reading into the story looking at the scripture holistically. I think the story on its own supports the notion, too, though. It calls out that Noah found favor with God, but it later says that righteousness was a factor. It just isn't as explicit.