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David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - TruthSeeker - 02-13-2011

MACARTHUR CALLS FOR “SEPARATION” BUT MOCKS SEPARATISTS (Friday Church News Notes, February 11, 2011, http://www.wayoflife.org fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - In a message to thousands of pastors at last year’s Shepherds’ Conference, John MacArthur called for separation from the world but, confusingly, also used the occasion to malign fundamentalists, the very group that is still trying to practice separation. He said, “The church, if it is to be anything, it is to be absolutely distinct from culture, absolutely distinct from the world, absolutely distinct from unbelievers. ... Paul demands a total break. ... You can’t marry the church to the culture. Don’t fornicate with the world” (“MacArthur Tells Christians: Don’t fornicate with the World,” Christian Post, March 5, 2010). That’s a good challenge as far as it goes. The problem is that MacArthur undermines it by countenancing worldly Christian rock (he has changed his position on this through the years) and refusing to draw clear lines in such things as dress and entertainment and by yoking together with compromisers. He has long participated in the deeply ecumenical National Religious Broadcasters and has spoken on the same platform with Roman Catholics. He has spoken in meetings with Billy Graham and Luis Palau, and though some point out that this is in the past, to our knowledge he has never plainly reproved Graham’s ecumenical evangelism heresy whereby thousands of “converts” have been turned over to the Roman Catholic Church. In other words, MacArthur talks about separation but doesn’t practice it. It appears that he is so worried that someone will identify him as a fundamentalist that he cannot preach and practice separatism in a clear fashion. He has to fudge. In the same message he labeled fundamentalism as “cruel and unbiblical” because it builds “high walls in terms of conduct and relationships” and vilifies those who cross the walls. Building walls of conduct and relationships is exactly what the Bible demands when it calls for separation (e.g., Romans 12:2; 16:17; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Ephesians 5:21; 1 Timothy 6:3-5; 2 Timothy 3:5; 1 John 2:15-17), but as for vilifying those who cross the walls, that is a gross mischaracterization. For example, I don’t vilify ecumenical evangelists or Christian rockers; I biblically reprove them, and there is nothing cruel about that. Warning of sin and error is not cruel! MacArthur said, “I’m not by nature this narrow-minded kind of separatist who wants to chew up and spit out everybody who crosses the lines that I draw.” Good, neither am I! I have been a fundamentalist by conviction for 36 years (being convinced of this position from the Bible), and the vast majority of fundamentalist preachers I know do not fit MacArthur’s description. He is creating a nasty little straw man, and I deeply resent it. Sure, separatist preachers are just men and some are more spiritual than others, but the vast majority of the ones I fellowship with are simply trying to obey the Bible and please the Lord that saved them, which is exactly what MacArthur claims to be doing. If anyone is vilifying anyone, it is MacArthur who is vilifying fundamentalists. The man has taken some good stands in the midst of his compromise (e.g., warning against the charismatic movement and the emerging church), and he should stop vilifying fundamentalists. It is ungodly.



RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - Elijah Craig - 02-13-2011

Quote:MacArthur said, “I’m not by nature this narrow-minded kind of separatist who wants to chew up and spit out everybody who crosses the lines that I draw.” Good, neither am I! I have been a fundamentalist by conviction for 36 years (being convinced of this position from the Bible), and the vast majority of fundamentalist preachers I know do not fit MacArthur’s description. He is creating a nasty little straw man, and I deeply resent it.

ROFL!


RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - TruthSeeker - 02-13-2011

David Cloud says, "He has spoken in meetings with Billy Graham and Luis Palau, and though some point out that this is in the past, to our knowledge he has never plainly reproved Graham’s ecumenical evangelism heresy whereby thousands of “converts” have been turned over to the Roman Catholic Church."

If I recall correctly I think there is a video sermon on youtube where MacArthur speaks against Billy Graham's ecumenical evangelism.



David Clouds continues, "In other words, MacArthur talks about separation but doesn’t practice it. It appears that he is so worried that someone will identify him as a fundamentalist that he cannot preach and practice separatism in a clear fashion. He has to fudge."

I think that's a serious charge to say that MacArthur does not practice separation. How can Mr. Cloud say that with certainty? Is it because MacArthur is not so strict with music? Not so strict with dressing? Maybe MacArthur does not practice second degree separation like Mr. Cloud.


RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - Historian - 02-13-2011

I wish the fundy's could agree on what the h*ll "separation" actually is, and stop making separating from today's world the equivalent of living in 1940, 1920, or 1856 (depending on the camp). And I used that word because I can't think of any other way to express the depth of my feeling.


RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - exIFB - 02-13-2011

David Cloud said something about someone. What a surprise Wink

Although this time, it's true. MacArthur has his own arbitrary standards that change, much like any Baptist pastor.


RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - Tony R - 02-13-2011

(02-13-2011, 10:23 PM)TruthSeeker Wrote: I have been a fundamentalist by conviction for 36 years (being convinced of this position from the Bible),

Where in the Bible???

My ex-pastor (IFB) used to frequently say (and probably still does say), “I am a Baptist by conviction”. I once asked him what he meant by that. He replied, “I mean that the Bible tells me to be a Baptist”. He also like to tell a little joke, “People ask me what I would be if I wasn’t a Baptist. I tell them I would be ashamed” (always followed my laughter and hearty “AMEN”s from his “yes men”).

WHERE?! Where in the Bible does it tell these guys to be Fundamentalists or Baptists? Give me chapter and verse please!

[EDIT: The above quote is not TruthSeeker’s words. They are David Cloud’s words quoted in TruthSeekers post.]


RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - TruthSeeker - 02-13-2011

Tony R that was a quote from David Cloud.


RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - Don - 02-13-2011

(02-13-2011, 10:27 PM)Elijah Craig Wrote:
Quote:MacArthur said, “I’m not by nature this narrow-minded kind of separatist who wants to chew up and spit out everybody who crosses the lines that I draw.” Good, neither am I! I have been a fundamentalist by conviction for 36 years (being convinced of this position from the Bible), and the vast majority of fundamentalist preachers I know do not fit MacArthur’s description. He is creating a nasty little straw man, and I deeply resent it.

ROFL!

So David Coud says. "I have met the enemy and he is 'John MacArthur.'"

"Good, neither am I."
That is one of the greatest character flaws of a Fundamentalist... they see the problems in everyone but themselves and here Cloud gives a clinical example of Extreme projection: The blatant denial of a moral or psychological deficiency, which is perceived as a deficiency in another individual or group.



RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - Tony R - 02-13-2011

(02-13-2011, 11:18 PM)TruthSeeker Wrote: Tony R that was a quote from David Cloud.

Got it. I edited my post so as to make that known.


RE: David Cloud Speaks Out On John MacArthur - IFB No More - 02-13-2011

This is why ex-fundies like myself leave IFBX churches quietly and not on good terms. These people do not even consider fundy-lites such as MacArthur acceptable. There will always be a problem in their opinion that they must judge and oppose. To them, there is no such thing as "agree to disagree".